discussion Harder difficulty

[Rifleman]

2 hours ago, dbldrew said:

and yet the addition of a 4th harder option was also ruled out by the developers and you still asked of it in your poll. the custom option has been requested by many people and it fits into your topic. if people want to talk about the pros and cons then that what message boards are for. The game is on alpha now is the time to talk about it regardless if the developers think its a good idea or not. 

this is the last i will talk about if we should or should not talk about it. i really dont want to waste time arguing if we should even discuss it.. it will be discussed if people like the idea..

Do you have a link?

[Salty Crackers]

You guys need to stop arguing. This has nothing to do with the thread's topic anymore.

[Pillock]

A "New Experience Mode" is scheduled to be in the next update, due any day now!

"Experience mode" is Hinterland-speak for what most people call 'difficulty setting'.

So... let's wait and see what we get.

[cekivi]

Hey @Rifleman and @dbldrew. No one's done any spamming yet. Offering a suggestion, even if it's one the dev team doesn't care for, in a constructive way is still welcome on the forums. If you submitted 20 copy-pasted requests for "custom mode now plz" we may have a problem.

[MueckE]

The main problem here, and in all other posts about difficulty, is the level of punishment that does not fit to the description of the diffrent game modes. It doesn't matter if you call it "too easy", not difficult enough, challenging, or whatever.

Right now, all game modes are basicly Pilgrim mode (if you follow the description). So you select a "brutal, heavy punishing" game mode like stalker and get Pilgrim where everything is made to keep you alive. A wolf doesn't kill you, shelter-houses-caves make a blizzard meaningless, lots of loot, falling through ice doesn't kill you, freezing/starving while sleeping doesn't kill you ..... basicly nothing kills you unless you try hard to die This means all that is left is exploring savely, and that's Pilgrim mode (even if it says Stalker).

In earlier versions it was diffrent. It was more like you know that every decision you have to make will lead somehow to your death. Death was waiting behind every corner and you had to try to survive as long as possible. "how long can you survive?" Even if you were a "pro" and knew all tricks, locations, just everything about the game - the question was more like: Will i survive 50 or 60 days. And if there wouldn't have been several exploits, at that time nobody would have survived much longer than that That's the level of Punishment some users expect when they select "Stalker".

I think there is no point in discussing "how" Hinterland "should" do something. A custom difficulty or new experience mode is not needed to change it. If Hinterland wants to, because there is more behind that, i am sure they will. But to solve this problem, you could easily just follow the descriptions of the game modes and tweak the level of punishment of the already existing features the game offers.

[Pillock]

16 minutes ago, MueckE said:

basicly nothing kills you unless you try hard to die This means all that is left is exploring savely, and that's Pilgrim mode (even if it says Stalker).

I'm not sure this is true.

The problem I have with the difficulty (challenge, whatever you want to call it) is not that I can run around the maps care-free on Stalker, as if there is no danger at all. I can't - I still get into trouble doing that. The problem I have is that the way to survive for a long time - and without much difficulty now that I know most of the maps quite well - is to find a decent shelter, then set up rabbit traps and fishing equipment and then just repeat the same tasks over and over and over day after day. Doing this enables me to survive for long periods, so I feel like I'm 'succeeding' at the game, but it isn't actually very engaging in terms of playability. It's pretty dull, in fact, if I'm honest.

Exploration does still provide a challenge, because it exposes you to cold and to the dangers of changing weather or of wolves and bears. But there's no incentive to explore, once you've found your shelter with nearby trapping/fishing - you can stay there forever without much cause for alarm. I think this is where the fundamental problem with the balance lies: buildings are too safe, and fishing/snares are too reliable for catching food (and perhaps too easy to maintain).

I agree with you though that the feats and skills introduced more recently have made things even easier. I think the skills system is a good one in principle, but needs adjusting. I don't like feats at all, personally, but I'm not opposed them being included - I'd just like to have the option not to use them if I choose. I haven't used snow-shelters much, to be honest, because on the few occasions when I've been in a situation where they might have been useful, it's always seemed more sensible to run to the nearest building or cave instead of spending time and resources making the thing.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

21 minutes ago, Pillock said:

I agree with you though that the feats and skills introduced more recently have made things even easier. I think the skills system is a good one in principle, but needs adjusting. I don't like feats at all, personally, but I'm not opposed them being included - I'd just like to have the option not to use them if I choose.

I agree

[Vinceofpyrenees]

1 hour ago, MueckE said:

The main problem here, and in all other posts about difficulty, is the level of punishment that does not fit to the description of the diffrent game modes. It doesn't matter if you call it "too easy", not difficult enough, challenging, or whatever.

Right now, all game modes are basicly Pilgrim mode (if you follow the description). So you select a "brutal, heavy punishing" game mode like stalker and get Pilgrim where everything is made to keep you alive. A wolf doesn't kill you, shelter-houses-caves make a blizzard meaningless, lots of loot, falling through ice doesn't kill you, freezing/starving while sleeping doesn't kill you ..... basicly nothing kills you unless you try hard to die This means all that is left is exploring savely, and that's Pilgrim mode (even if it says Stalker).

Interesting vision. So, for you, what are the common causes between Pilgrim and Stalker ? 

I think to three suggestions for the reasons who make Pilgrim and Stalker the same experience ''that keep you alive" :

1) Too many items ?

2) Too many shelters ? (shelters/houses/caves)

3) Shelters too much safe ? (houses, caves) 

 

[MueckE]

I don't know since when you guys played tld. Let me give you a hint about how the punishing level once was with the actual game:

Imagine you play "the hunted" challenge. You can't leave PV and you only can use the south of the map. There is only a quarter of the loot that you can find now. No caves to hide, no shelters, no bows, no crafted clothes.  If you want to eat peaches, you will have to be lucky to find a can opener. If you want to make a fire, you will have to find a news print and harvest it. If you have more than 24 matches, you are the luckiest man in the world. Good luck looking for these life saving things while you have to travel across the map while death is chasing you in form of animals and blizzards. On the way there is no shelter and if you are lucky and make it to your destination, you will be almost dead already and than you have to hope to find anything that keeps you alive for a little bit longer.  A wolf attacks you = Dead, falling through ice = dead, starving/freezing/whatever while sleeping = dead(no waiking up), sprained ankle = almost dead, blizzard = if outside - dead in a few minutes.

 

I could go on and on, but this should give you a taste about what level of challenge it once was. Don't get me wrong, i always would prefer the current game over the old one. All the nice things that had been added are just to good. Still, these things could be used to create a similar survival challenge as it once was, but with a lot more versatility, lots of decisions to make and an enjoyable and immersive gameplay. The game right now has all of that, except the punishing challenge.

What you call "trouble" is nothing compared to how it once was. The truth is, most of you guys wouldn't play tld if it would be that "hard" again. That's why the three game modes were introduced. And that was great. But let's be honest, even here in the forum where you can find the biggest fans of the game, only a handful of players would like to play a stalker that is so punishing and challenging - although this would fit to the description of the game mode. The actual game and it's features would allow a balancing in between these extremes, but takes time and effort. And although stalker is basicly pilgrim, only 10% play stalker ...  

[Hatchet]

On 24-8-2016 at 6:32 PM, Dirmagnos said:

I dont want Stalker to be harder, i want it to be different. I want a challenge, instead i get annoyance. My current game is on Voyager, even tho its easier, its far better balanced and far more enjoyable - its nowhere near to as hard as id like, but its far less irritating.

Id like stronger predators, but it dont want wolves to be every step of the way. I want bears being a real threat unless player is well prepared, but i completely despise parasites.

Like he said.
What's up with the double 'N' in every 'wannt' you wrote? XD

~Hatchet

[Dirmagnos]

1 hour ago, Hatchet said:

Like he said.
What's up with the double 'N' in every 'wannt' you wrote? XD

~Hatchet

English is not my native language and this is one horrible habit i have, just cant get rid of it. I encourage you to point those things out every time you see it.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

"I dont wannt Stalker to be harder, i wannt it to be different. I wannt a challenge, instead i get annoyance. My current game is on Voyager, even tho its easier, its far better balanced and far more enjoyable - its nowhere near to as hard as id like, but its far less irritating.

Id like stronger predators, but it dont wannt wolves to be every step of the way. I wannt bears being a real threat unless player is well prepared, but i completely despise parasites. I wannt more stuff(because i love scavenging, and finding nothing  80% of the time kills all the fun), but loot would be of lower quality. I wannt harsher weather and id like snow shelter to be properly balanced. Etc."

 

AGREE

[Hatchet]

On 2-9-2016 at 8:34 PM, Pillock said:

23 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

English is not my native language and this is one horrible habit i have, just cant get rid of it. I encourage you to point those things out every time you see it.

A "New Experience Mode" is scheduled to be in the next update, due any day now!

"Experience mode" is Hinterland-speak for what most people call 'difficulty setting'.

So... let's wait and see what we get.

No matter what i do, if i quote you @Dirmagnos i get a random quote from someone else...and also text in this area i have to remove, these forums really reek of fail -.- Odd seeing as how epic the game is, these forums should be destroyed and rebuild from the ground up, can't stress it enough how much of a fail these forums are

Anyway, that's a deal, i have those to and i hate it, can't remember any from the top of my head right now but sometimes i make stupid spelling errors that change the outcome of my sentences and give people the wrong idea
Yeah 'sense' is such one, i have a habit of writing (no :p) 'sence'! <.<

~Hatchet

[Dirmagnos]

@Hatchet Forum seems to save replies, even if you havent send it. Problem that it seem to save it indefinitely(an hour would be more that sufficient) and you have to clear this field where you write response, or you get some old messages piled up on top of new ones. Deleting quote box is tricky, i double click it and then press Del, seems to do the job.

Other than that i dont know what to suggest.

[Hatchet]

11 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

@Hatchet Forum seems to save replies, even if you havent send it. Problem that it seem to save it indefinitely(an hour would be more that sufficient) and you have to clear this field where you write response, or you get some old messages piled up on top of new ones. Deleting quote box is tricky, i double click it and then press Del, seems to do the job.

Other than that i dont know what to suggest.

Certainly was not something i wrote, plus whatever i wrote i did post.
Can't be bothered to adept to these forums, i'll just keep mocking them untill the end of days, for they should be mocked.

~Hatchet

[Fuarian]

A new difficulty would be better.

 

Less items, harder wildlife but not everywhere. Balanced wolves essentially.

Features that would make it feel more like a survival game than an inventory managment game.

[Pillock]

On 9/6/2016 at 3:18 PM, MueckE said:

What you call "trouble" is nothing compared to how it once was. The truth is, most of you guys wouldn't play tld if it would be that "hard" again.

I'd play it.

When I first got into TLD I wanted the 'full' experience of the available gameplay, without it being artificially toned down or tweaked for extra difficulty (which is what I interpreted from the Experience Mode descriptions). So I chose Voyageur.

I died. And died again. And again. Lots of times. I kept coming back for more because I wanted to improve on my best survival time. It became addictive, and there was a big sense of accomplishment when I beat my previous best.

After a while, I started to learn my way around and figure out the best methods to stay alive for longer periods. I made all the craftable stuff, I stockpiled supplies and I explored the maps. Exploring and finding new places was fun, but it didn't match the sense of achievement I'd got from constantly struggling against very near death, getting through another day by the skin of my teeth.

So I started playing Stalker instead. I failed my first attempt because I didn't know about the change to fire-warmth between Voyageur and Stalker (I died of cold on some foggy hillside, desperately trying to collect firewood before I'd even figured out which map I was on!), but after that I managed to settle into the same routine I'd established in my Voyageur games: figure out where you are; get to a decent building to set up base; work towards establishing a sustainable food supply while consuming found loot-food and collecting stocks of firewood in the meantime; explore the nearby facilities for useful clothes and tools. Once you've done that, you're OK, in Stalker just as much as in Voyageur: it's essentially the same. I didn't notice a significant difficulty-jump aside from the aforementioned fire-warming mechanic.

What I want from Stalker is something more akin to my early experiences - that's what the experience mode says it is on the label. The odds should be heavily stacked against the player, but without it feeling too artificial and gamey (if that's possible to balance - I'd hope so). There should be no consideration for new players finding it too difficult - not in Stalker mode. Stalker mode should be for the players who know how to play, who probably know the maps well already, but who still want a challenge from the game. At the moment, there isn't a mode for these players, because Stalker is not significantly more difficult or punishing than Voyageur is.

The next update promises a "New Experience Mode". So hopefully this post will very soon be redundant!

[EternityTide]

I only play Voyageur, so I'm probably going to get hellfire rained down upon me for daring to voice my opinion on this decidedly controversial topic, nevertheless.

If I was to increase the difficulty of the game, the way I would do it is not "increase wolves", but buff them. Make them more of a threat with increased damage and tougher resistance to melee and arrows. Increase their detection radius, but give them more intelligent behaviour, such as trailing you from afar, avoiding direct lines of sight, waiting in ambush, and stalking you silently, with no growling or barking, the only give away would be their footsteps. Wind direction should also be a factor, making you less likely to be detected by a wolf if you are downwind of the wolf. Lighten their coats and make them harder to distinguish from the snow, as well as give them more random movements, instead of the stiff patrols you see in Voyageur.

As for difficulty increase, make the weather harsher, colder temperatures and longer storms. Reduce the base temperature of indoor environments by 5 degrees, and include factors such as wetness when you walk in from a blizzard to a warm fire. All human produced food (canned goods, drinks, bars and MREs) are reduced by 20%.

Reduce the temperature output of all fuels, and decrease initial fire starting chance to 40%. Increase chance of failure if player is freezing/numb. Make matches harder to find, and reduce the speed at which all melting, boiling and cooking occurs. 

Reduce the amount of repair percentage occurring per repair, and make the probability of failure higher in lower light conditions, as well as when the player is cold.

Increase the probability of sprains when on steep terrain and encumbered, and reduce the total number of painkillers to a number below 20. Rosehips would also be more difficult to find, only 4 produced per harvest, and be subject to low rate of spoilage after being picked.

Increase more variability in bow/rifle hits, such as gusts that suddenly veer your projectile mid flight, make bow usage in excessively cold weather increase wear. Make hitting rocks with bow result in instant arrow breakage. Reduce the capture rate of rabbits to a cap of 3 per 24 hours, no matter how many snares are placed in one region, and increase the chances of lines snapping in fishing, as well as  reduce fish weights. All deer are thinner, and carry 25% less meat than their Voyageur counterparts. Same for wolves and bears. Deer are especially scarce, and are only encountered alone.

Reduce rifle spawn to only one rifle in the entire world. Maximum of 3 bullets can be found per map, and no preppers cache. All lockers will be locked, all car trunks will be locked, and safes now require a 5 number combination to open, but with guaranteed contents (never empty). 

Crows only sometimes circle corpses, and sometimes circle live wolves, drawing in unsuspecting players. Leaving any food, aside from cans, outside has a risk of attracting bears. Food stored in especially cold places will be listed as "frozen", requiring twice as long to be cooked if raw, and requires thawing to be eaten, at the benefit that all frozen food decays at only 1% every day.

Hows that for difficulty?

[cekivi]

On 2016-09-10 at 6:39 PM, EternityTide said:

Crows only sometimes circle corpses, and sometimes circle live wolves, drawing in unsuspecting players. Leaving any food, aside from cans, outside has a risk of attracting bears. Food stored in especially cold places will be listed as "frozen", requiring twice as long to be cooked if raw, and requires thawing to be eaten, at the benefit that all frozen food decays at only 1% every day.

That would be delightfully evil on the part of the devs

[Rifleman]

Good news guys! The devs will be adding a 4TH difficulty 

I don't want to spoil too much so join my private chat if you want to find out more.

Topic closed.

[EternityTide]

4 hours ago, Rifleman said:

Topic closed.

Ermm, pretty certain that only moderators can close topics, even if you start them.

[Rifleman]

19 minutes ago, EternityTide said:

Ermm, pretty certain that only moderators can close topics, even if you start them.

Technically I can close the topic by deleating it but I think the admins want to lock the topic.

[EternityTide]

3 hours ago, Rifleman said:

Technically I can close the topic by deleating it but I think the admins want to lock the topic.

Have you tried asking them?

[cekivi]

Topic closed (well, locked)

And yes, generally it is better to lock old threads rather than deleting them. There's a lot of good discussion here!