Stone&Flint knapping

[vancopower]

I know that the developers encourage us to play nomadic style, explore and so on (CABIN FEVER!!)  but many players still like the idea of hunkering down in some sweet spot and stockpile meat and other resources. Other times we are just forced to do so by heavy storms, or need to heal up, and except from braking furniture there is not much else what you can do indoors. Well you can read books but that costs food and food is scarce when you are not exploring or hunting. 

Also I have read many posts about people wanting to introduce stone and flint tools into the game so here is my idea on how to do that:

- Find Simple or Quality tools

- Find Workbench

On the Workbench there should be an option which allows you to craft stone tools like:

Stone arrowheads x2 ( 2 hours to make) - 5% tools

Stone spearhead  ( 6 hours to make) - 10% tools

Sharpened stone  ( 8 hours to make) - 15% tools

These will use no other resources to make except the durability of the tools used and time. Similar to creating water from fire.  

Stone arrowheads  can be used to make arrows

Stone spearhead  can be used together with cloth to make Stone knife

or with fishing line and maple sapling to make spear which can act like a torch when scarring wolves however it does not burn up over time.

Sharpened stone will be used to make hatchet together with maple sapling and fishing line

 

 

[Boston123]

Ugh, no. 

Do you know how to flint-knapp?

Why would our bushpilot know how to flint-knap?

Enough with the flint-knapping. The forge is enough of a suspension of disbelief.

[danicusrex]

3 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

Ugh, no. 

Do you know how to flint-knapp?

Why would our bushpilot know how to flint-knap?

Enough with the flint-knapping. The forge is enough of a suspension of disbelief.

Why would the bush pilot know how? No idea.

Do I know how? Yes. (Anthropology Club in school, Boy Scouts)

Is it impossible that the pilot was a Boy Scout? 

[vancopower]

2 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

Ugh, no. 

Do you know how to flint-knapp?

Why would our bushpilot know how to flint-knap?

Enough with the flint-knapping. The forge is enough of a suspension of disbelief.

Yea well according to you nobody knows anything, or they should be doctors with PHDs to do simple things like making stone tools. I've noticed your responses to many topics you think that if you can't do it that nobody can. That is what you said about gunpowder making yet a simple Cambodian villager did it.

See danicusrex    can do it  Thanks danicusrex 

You are a survivor 

 

 

[danicusrex]

3 minutes ago, vancopower said:

 

See danicusrex    can do it  Thanks danicusrex 

You are a survivor 

 

 

Hey, the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared".  I took that to heart.



Here's an article I just found about some Cub Scouts in Arkansas learning about the basics of flint knapping... Once they're in Boy Scouts proper they'll get the opportunity to make their own for a merit badge.

http://archeology.uark.edu/flint-knapping/

[Boston123]

5 hours ago, danicusrex said:

Why would the bush pilot know how? No idea.

Do I know how? Yes. (Anthropology Club in school, Boy Scouts)

Is it impossible that the pilot was a Boy Scout? 

Congratulations. I also know how to flint-knapp. Did I learn it in the Scouts, or did I learn it in a survival situation?

Hell no. I taught myself, over weeks, sitting at home, well-fed and comfortable. I didn't try to frantically figure something out when starving and cold, in the middle of the woods.

When I was in the Scouts, I took, and taught, the Metal-Working Merit Badge, specifically the Blacksmithing option. Does that mean I can take a shitty, non-metal working hammer, some chunks of coal, and some scrap metal I peeled off a locker/shelf, and make a knife out of it?

Hell no.

You are assuming that the bushpilot has a varied skillset, when really, going by how our skills start out, the bushpilot was incompetent at everyday tasks. They couldn't cook food to make it safe to eat, for gods sake, much less identify knappable material and be able to work it.

 

[Boston123]

5 hours ago, vancopower said:

Yea well according to you nobody knows anything, or they should be doctors with PHDs to do simple things like making stone tools. I've noticed your responses to many topics you think that if you can't do it that nobody can. That is what you said about gunpowder making yet a simple Cambodian villager did it.

See danicusrex    can do it  Thanks danicusrex 

You are a survivor 

 

 

No, but you should probably want to be actually trained/skilled in an activity that is literally a trained skill.

Contrary to what many people on this forum think, flint-knapping  isn't simple. It is very complicated, and requires a lot of tactile and physical knowledge, something that almost all modern-day people not regularly exposed to lack as a matter of course. Tell me: if you had no idea about flint-knapping, no idea whatsoever, and you were thrown into a survival situation, would you try to knapp some random-ass piece of rock you found? Could you identify flint, or other knappable stones? Could you make your own tools to knapp with? HINT: It isn't just "bash some rocks together".

Also contrary to what many people on this forum think, even back in the Stone Ages, knapping was a professional skill. Not everybody, or even a lot of people, knew how to knap stone. To the point where there was cross-continental trade of pieces worked by specific artisans, who usually had a whole entourage of apprentices they taught. Your average hunter likely didn't know how to knapp. 

As for gunpowder: I have no idea how to make smokeless powder, which is what all modern-day firearms will use, including the rifle we have in-game. That requires advanced chemistry knowledge, a stocked lab, as well as materials from different continents. What I do know how to make is black powder. I've seen that video before, you posted it, actually, and guess what they are using?

Black powder.

Regardless, I am willing to bet they didn't just discover how to produce blackpowder all on their lonesome. No, they probably learned how to make it the same exact fashion I did: Someone taught them, either directly or through providing the formula. 

It is the same idea as baking a cake. On your own, you probably have no idea about how to go about baking a cake, but if i were to provide, say, a recipe (the formula), with the exact amounts needed and how and when to combine them, you could probably give a pretty good show at putting a half-decent cake together.

[Dirmagnos]

Yes to stone knapping, no to usage of tools or saplings.

Why does everything have to use up unreplenishable resources for no good reason ?!?!

Also, necessity is mother of invention. If i have no tools, but manage to find some pointy sharpy piece of volcanic stone, id dam well gonna find some way to friggin use it. And even if i have tools, id know that eventually they will run out(break or get lost) and will gonna have to find other means to provide for myself, and its better to learn those skill sooner rather than later. Especially if i have plenty of time. Instead of doing some nonsense, like sitting on a porch and enjoying sunrise. 

Quality and how much time it will take to make something usable is another topic altogether.

So dont give me that shit about "suspension of disbelief".

[Wastelander]

34 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Also, necessity is mother of invention. If i have no tools, but manage to find some pointy sharpy piece of volcanic stone, id dam well gonna find some way to friggin use it.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Boston123]

3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Yes to stone knapping, no to usage of tools or saplings.

Why does everything have to use up unreplenishable resources for no good reason ?!?!

Also, necessity is mother of invention. If i have no tools, but manage to find some pointy sharpy piece of volcanic stone, id dam well gonna find some way to friggin use it. And even if i have tools, id know that eventually they will run out(break or get lost) and will gonna have to find other means to provide for myself, and its better to learn those skill sooner rather than later. Especially if i have plenty of time. Instead of doing some nonsense, like sitting on a porch and enjoying sunrise. 

Quality and how much time it will take to make something usable is another topic altogether.

So dont give me that shit about "suspension of disbelief".

Go outside, right now, and pick up a piece of "volcanic rock". Go ahead.

Now, try to make a tool from it. Hell, just try to make a sharp edge.

Chances are, you are going to break the piece and drive shards of razor-sharp stone into your hand.

And ....... do you even know what "volcanic stone" looks like? Can you identify flint, quartz, chert? 

What happens when there isn't any knappable stone in your area, which is something that happened in real life, like THE WHOLE OF NEW ENGLAND? Are you really going to go risk life and limb, just so you play around knapping stone?

No, to do so is asinine.

When people hear the words "flint-knapping", they inevitably think of themselves making beautiful stone tools, like bifaced points, axeheads, etc, when the reality is more like that time you tried to draw a piece of Classical Art freehand, after never drawing anything in their lives before.

To make a long story short, your piece is going to be awful, you are going to suck, and it just plain isn't going to work.

NOTE:

I am not against knapping per se, but I am against our very amateur bushpilot turning out trade-good-worthy pieces of stonework. The entire time I have been here on this forum, I have always suggested the following whenever knapping comes up: 

With the microblades made from broken glass. No need to go out and search for flint/knappable stone, just break a window. No need to imaginify why the hell the bushpilot decided to learn how to flintknapp, just using what they can ("mother of invention?) No need to strain my ability to disbelieve the game any more.

Hell, I've used the above broken-glass-arrows before. They work fine. Best yet, I don't care at all when they break, as they inevitably will, because it takes about 5 minutes to make a new arrow.

The point about "primitive" arrowheads that you people don't seem to understand: They break. Usually, the first time they punch through an animal. The tip will be the first bit to break, but I have had primitive heads snap down the middle before. Since they are going to break so often, do you want to waste the time and effort it takes to knapp a bifaced projectile point, which is essentially what you people are asking for:

........ Or are you going to do the above method, where you take a piece of glass and snap off some shards along the edge?

[Dirmagnos]

There havent been much of volcanic activity in the past in area where im from, so no go on that part. In comparison to same New England that started as a volcanic island to begin with. But i guess one of prerequisites of finding something is to actually go outside and looking for that something. Otherwise its kinda problematic. In every source i looked it says that New England has a ton of volcanic rock. But meh, thats just geology, if you havent seen it, then it doesnt exist.

Problem with working this material is that its brittle, as far as im aware, but apparently, according to you its also explosive, sending razor sharp pieces in every direction as it goes boom. Or you presume that every1 are idiots and will try to bash those pieces with big rocks or throw them against the wall at maximum possible velocity, while standing right next to it.

Also, its not "30 questions", where i have to know the names of every rock i come around. If i see something that i think could be useful, il try to make a use of it. If i fail, which is most likely, i will try again... and again... and again, until i succeed... or die from rock explosion.

Absolute majority of western people have heard about things like flint knapping or volcanic rock or stone arrows. And while most lack knowledge of what exactly it is, often having general idea(and lot of time and need) of what can be done is enough to start trying to make something. Its far better than sitting comfortably on owns ass and pondering "ohh well, my only knife is almost broken, i guess il just go crawl into that hole and die there".

And you must be of really high opinion of yourself, since as far as i know, most people, when mentioning words like "flint-knapping" are thinking about items like flints or stone tools(like in general, as "they exist"), while having pretty much no idea of how to make them, nor interest in learning it. No1 in their right mind thinks that they can just pick up a random stone, hit it against another stone couple of times and voila, a stone spear head.

Nobody is saying that player is supposed to start mass producing arrowheads and stone tools after finding random piece of rock and striking it couple of times. It was also never proposed in this way. General idea was always to be able to make low-quality tools with high chance of failure. At least until players learns the ropes of the craft to a satisfactory degree thru a lot of try and error and gain substantial amount of experience.

[Scyzara]

Guys, unless you're going to considerably improve your tone while talking to each other this thread is likely to be locked down. I'm goddam tired of reading all the passive aggressive texts some users produce 90% of the time they submit a post.

The HL Forums are meant to be an enjoyable place for somehow meaningful and respectful discussions about the game, not some third-class debating club where everyone tries to bash and insult each other verbally about topics that aren't even game-related. 

Thread marked for supervision.

[EternityTide]

I think Boston123 is right. Flint knapping is a very specialised, extremely unusual skill, not to mention the fact that decent flint beds are hard to come by, and you would be unlikely to find any by digging under the snow. Flint in the UK is largely found after the ground has been ploughed (usually in chalky regions), as large nodules that get dragged up by the blades of the plough. This takes a lot of energy.

Growing up in Mid Wales, I used to make slate blades, since the local geology was a combination of slate, mudstone and granite, no flint whatsoever. However slate blades are fragile, dull easily, and require constant sharpening after every use to keep them usable. So alternatives to flint, poor though they are, exist. However in my personal opinion, flint knapping is beyond the scope of this game. I've found that arrowheads made from the steel of tin cans is an easily workable means of tipping an arrow. Knives are sufficient in the game as they are, though a few more whetstones in the game, or the implementation of my idea of a grindstone (I know that makes you wince, @Boston123 ) would not go amiss, but the issues I have previously mentioned mean that stone blades would be more trouble than they are worth.

It's a nice idea, but I just don't think it's feasible.

[Boston123]

Most of New Englands rock outcroppings and bedrock are Granite, Limestone, Gneiss or sand/small cobbles. We don't have any natural sources of flint. The closest, I think, is the Mohawk Flint in New York........ which is why it was used as a regional trade good amongst the Natives. The locals used small chunks of other rocks, like Quartz and Slate, but they are harder to work with and largely inferior to flint/chert. Rhyolite exists, but it is a pain in the ass to work with.

Finally, I agree with EternityTide. "Realistically", there is absolutely no reason to include flint-knapping in the game. Why would you, when there are perfectly good spoons and knives to be found in houses, or scrap metal to work with? I have posted videos about making broadheads from spoons before, and it is how I make my arrowheads in real life. Not to mention that there are other ways of working metal other than a forge. Hacksaw, tinsnips, file. With nothing more than the tools found on the workbench already in-game, you can make a perfectly-usable arrowhead. Hell, I have made broadheads capable of taking down a deer before by folding the bottom of a tin can lid, using nothing more than the pair of pliers found on a multitool.

What would be the first thing I think of, were I to find myself in a TLD-kind of situation? Using already existing metal sources. Spoons, sheet metal, strapping steel, empty cans. Not working stone.

And that is coming from someone that already knows how to knap.

[miah999]

You know there are many simple stone tools made from either a single flake or with only grinding, from hammers to knives.

Also I can tell from experience as a correctional office in American prisons that knapping is neither hard to learn nor does it require actual flint. If prison inmates with barely a high school education can knap a six inch knife from a toilet lid, anyone can learn the basics pretty quickly. Remember that things don't have to be pretty to work. Other knap-able things include glass and some artificial stone.

My personal opinion is knapping should be a high level skill we can learn in order to survive past day 3000 should we desire to play that way.

Also I believe that the game should include as many crafting options as the devs are willing and able to provide.

Of course a search of the forums would have found my thread on this subject from a month ago, so I'm just restating my opinion.

[dbldrew]

I really dont understand why people are so against flint knapping. Adding in an extra "crafting" option is not a game braking change. Here is the thing, if you dont think flint knapping is realistic then... dont use it.. problem solved

 

I think the rifle make the game so easy.. so i guess I could start threads on how i think the gun should not be in the game and have it removed.. then ruining others fun who like to use it.. or i can continue to.. not use it.. 

[vancopower]

9 hours ago, dbldrew said:

I really dont understand why people are so against flint knapping. Adding in an extra "crafting" option is not a game braking change. Here is the thing, if you dont think flint knapping is realistic then... dont use it.. problem solved

 

I think the rifle make the game so easy.. so i guess I could start threads on how i think the gun should not be in the game and have it removed.. then ruining others fun who like to use it.. or i can continue to.. not use it.. 

You almost summarized all wanted to say Thanks. Why do people always focus on trivial things I can't understand Name me one game that follows the path of realism and does not have something virtual like Points coins collectibles and so on?  I started this topic to encourage ideas about game-play mechanic not Bear Grylz tutorial of modern man surviving in the forest  If anyone has opinion on that or has better idea fine otherwise I would suggest that this topic should be locked down like the transformers did to the dinobots

[Dirmagnos]

11 hours ago, vancopower said:

You almost summarized all wanted to say Thanks. Why do people always focus on trivial things I can't understand Name me one game that follows the path of realism and does not have something virtual like Points coins collectibles and so on?

Every work of fiction has its roots in real life. There is no way around it. And every good work of fiction adds only required amount of sad fiction into the mix. No good game has unrealistic features in it "just because", generally its a result of idea that couldnt be implemented in any other way or is extension of already exiting tools or methods. In games most features are implemented unrealistically to simplify game and make it more user-friendly.

Personally i consider pseudo-arguments as "its just a game" to be a pinnacle of laziness and stupidity, since in this case i wannt a friggin Apache helicopter, with unlimited fuel, ammo and missiles... Why ?  Because its a game and doesnt have to be realistic !!!

[Wastelander]

8 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Personally i consider pseudo-arguments as "its just a game" to be a pinnacle of laziness and stupidity, since in this case i wannt a friggin Apache helicopter, with unlimited fuel, ammo and missiles... Why ?  Because its a game and doesnt have to be realistic !!!

I feel inclined to agree to with this. However, "This is our vision" is a good argument from Hinterland's side. Granted, this hasn't been said in this thread. Just for future reference.

As for the actual topic (I shouldn't have to write this so often), actual flintknapping and making complex tools from stone is a no-go for me. Simple, inefficient but nonetheless sort-of working tools made from rocks, broken glass, sticks, spit and a bit of hope? Hell yeah, count me in. But if I want a stone-age simulator I'll play... actually, someone make a good stone-age simulator.

[dbldrew]

21 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Every work of fiction has its roots in real life. There is no way around it. And every good work of fiction adds only required amount of sad fiction into the mix. No good game has unrealistic features in it "just because", generally its a result of idea that couldnt be implemented in any other way or is extension of already exiting tools or methods. In games most features are implemented unrealistically to simplify game and make it more user-friendly.

Personally i consider pseudo-arguments as "its just a game" to be a pinnacle of laziness and stupidity, since in this case i wannt a friggin Apache helicopter, with unlimited fuel, ammo and missiles... Why ?  Because its a game and doesnt have to be realistic !!!

The unrealistic features in games are usually due to adding fun to the game. And adding flint knapping is not really an unrealistic feature.. humans have been doing it forever, anyone who was a boyscout probably tried it. So whats more unrealistic, being able to craft primitive tools or being able to take several bullet wounds without slowing down in every fps out there, or maybe fighting a dragon with magic? in the grand scheme of "realistic" gaming.. flint knapping isn't even close to unrealistic territory.. There are several people in this thread who can flint knap.. any real life dragon slaying wizards out there?  

 

[elloco999]

30 minutes ago, dbldrew said:

So whats more unrealistic, being able to craft primitive tools or being able to take several bullet wounds without slowing down in every fps out there, or maybe fighting a dragon with magic?

So we should add crafting primitive tools to every FPS, is that what you're saying? What of it that it's not realistic to be able to take multiple bullet wounds without slowing down in a FPS? TLD is not a FPS. TLD is striving after a certain level of realism, that FPS is not. Just because other games enable completely unrealistic things, does not mean TLD should also. (Actually, I think it's a reason not to...)

30 minutes ago, dbldrew said:

any real life dragon slaying wizards out there?

Not anymore. Not since I slayed the last dragon, no

 

Anyway, I'm not against adding "flint napping" to TLD. But I do believe it would take some time and effort before the player should be able to craft anything usable this way, and "flint" tools should be much more fragile than metal ones.

I do agree with @Boston123 that there are plenty of other ways to craft makeshift tools that make more sense to be added first, like making sharp pointy things from glass or using existing cutlery.

Maybe we should ask ourselves what we really want. Do we really want flint knapping, or is what we really want a way to live really long term by creating more tools, but not necessarily by means of knapping flint?

[nicko]

v349 we seem to have many ways to light fires. so unless those change over time why would I want to flint nap? I would rather use an easier way to light my fire. unless your thinking day 500+

and where are all the bic gas lighters? or zippos

[Dirmagnos]

3 hours ago, dbldrew said:

The unrealistic features in games are usually due to adding fun to the game. And adding flint knapping is not really an unrealistic feature.. humans have been doing it forever, anyone who was a boyscout probably tried it. So whats more unrealistic, being able to craft primitive tools or being able to take several bullet wounds without slowing down in every fps out there, or maybe fighting a dragon with magic? in the grand scheme of "realistic" gaming.. flint knapping isn't even close to unrealistic territory.. There are several people in this thread who can flint knap.. any real life dragon slaying wizards out there?  

Im actually pro-knapping, hell, im pro anything that has to do with living off the land. I love idea that at some point player could become self-sustaining and can theoretically survive indefinitely.

You actually got it in reverse with fps. Taking several bullets is usually not a problem, problem is being hit by those bullets. In modern firefights there are no sniping, unless youre actually a sniper, and even then its nothing even remotely related to this absurd shit like quickscoping or popshooting. Its mainly spray'n'pray deal - point your gun in general direction of enemies and start shooting in hopes that one of the bullets will hit.

Fantasy is a bit different animal, altho its roots are not that far from reality actually. Even closer than most shooters to be honest. Dragons are essentially lizards, with wings, big ones, with occasional fire spitting(or acid, or ice). Most of those characteristics are actually present in nature, in one form or another. And magic is even simpler and is explained by third rule of Clarkes Laws - any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Absolute majority of people have no idea how microwave oven works, yet we are so used to it, so that no1 is calling it magic, even tho same rule applies, while those who would haven ever heard of it could call it so.

[dbldrew]

3 hours ago, elloco999 said:

So we should add crafting primitive tools to every FPS, is that what you're saying? What of it that it's not realistic to be able to take multiple bullet wounds without slowing down in a FPS? TLD is not a FPS. TLD is striving after a certain level of realism, that FPS is not. Just because other games enable completely unrealistic things, does not mean TLD should also. (Actually, I think it's a reason not to...)

 

what? how did you get me comparing common unrealistic game features means i want to add flint knapping to a fps? 

TLD is a survival game.. so why is adding in a survival skill such a hard concept for people to understand? 

[cekivi]

And I'm still in the no flint knapping camp for reasons others have outlined

Sure, knapping could be in the game... but why not make more uses for scrap metal (i.e. spoons) first? Metal is a lot more durable and easier to work with than rock.