Return arrowhead crafting to workbench

[starfighter441]

I have to snicker abit everytime I hear the location of the Long Dark described as Northern Canada.  I'm fairly certain that it is modelled on Vancouver Island, or possibly the Queen Charlottes, and as a native of Prince George BC I don't consider either to be northern.

[Boston123]

35 minutes ago, Claysmiff1702 said:

Well that's pretty cool to know, makes perfect sense. I had no idea it was so complicated! I like the wooden head idea. Also in the part of the country I live in, obsidian (volcanic glass) arrowheads are all over the place. A couple of buddies are avid collectors and have found some awesome pieces, some thousands of years old! Wonder how abundant that stuff is in northern Canada.

Probably not very. Glass, just regular glass, would be it's functional equivalent.

[Boston123]

2 minutes ago, starfighter441 said:

I have to snicker abit everytime I hear the location of the Long Dark described as Northern Canada.  I'm fairly certain that it is modelled on Vancouver Island, or possibly the Queen Charlottes, and as a native of Prince George BC I don't consider either to be northern.

There is an older thread that basically narrows the range where the game could take place to southern British Colombia.

 

[Claysmiff1702]

54 minutes ago, starfighter441 said:

I have to snicker abit everytime I hear the location of the Long Dark described as Northern Canada.  I'm fairly certain that it is modelled on Vancouver Island, or possibly the Queen Charlottes, and as a native of Prince George BC I don't consider either to be northern.

Those are definitely not northern  just thought I read "Northern Canada" somewhere in a game description.

[Gleudal]

Idk why it it such a problem to travel to DP to forge arrow heads (if u want more than those, that u find in other maps). Personally I really like that there is only one forge right now and that I have a reason to go to DP and to spend a few days in that beautiful lighthouse. There is no reason to stay there too long because there is not too much to discover around, and after 5 days or so DP is looted and u can take the staff back to ur basis. But isnt TLD about travelling and getting stuff from evrywhere? so why do u want to stay in one map the whole time? I ve never heard a discussion about that there is only one flare gun (afaik) and that the way to get is is too long...

4 hours ago, Boston123 said:

To be a blacksmith, you basically need a chemistry degree, to understand how the metal is going to react when it gets heated and quenched.

U basically need the skill and knowledge how to use ur hands and tools. Its a craft, not a studies. 

And for other materials: why not use bones to carve arrowheads? also as a long term solution.

Buuuuuut in general I think it is important not to invent 10.000 items, when 10 can do exactly the same. Sure u always can find another solution, but is EVRYTHING really worth implementing? There are so many discussions in the forum, where I just think its fine as it is, we dont need 5 other solutions for the same thing.

[knightjoke]

+1 for making arrow head,, crafting for all work stations 

[Boston123]

5 hours ago, Gleudal said:

Idk why it it such a problem to travel to DP to forge arrow heads (if u want more than those, that u find in other maps). Personally I really like that there is only one forge right now and that I have a reason to go to DP and to spend a few days in that beautiful lighthouse. There is no reason to stay there too long because there is not too much to discover around, and after 5 days or so DP is looted and u can take the staff back to ur basis. But isnt TLD about travelling and getting stuff from evrywhere? so why do u want to stay in one map the whole time? I ve never heard a discussion about that there is only one flare gun (afaik) and that the way to get is is too long...

U basically need the skill and knowledge how to use ur hands and tools. Its a craft, not a studies. 

And for other materials: why not use bones to carve arrowheads? also as a long term solution.

Buuuuuut in general I think it is important not to invent 10.000 items, when 10 can do exactly the same. Sure u always can find another solution, but is EVRYTHING really worth implementing? There are so many discussions in the forum, where I just think its fine as it is, we dont need 5 other solutions for the same thing.

1) I dislike "having" to do something, even if I effectively really don't have to, especially when the new requirements are so out of left field, and so unrealistic, it drags me completely out of the game. In the past, I could make arrowheads in any shelter where there was a workbench; the Trappers Homestead, the Camp Office, the Fishing Huts, the Gas Station, etc. Now I have to trek my way all the way to DP, fighting off wolves all the way.

2) TLD isn't about that. It is about first; the story the developers are trying to tell, and secondly; survival. An old tagline of the game was "what would you do to survive?". Not "go to this one place, because that is the only way you can make something". Survival is all about choice

3) I do complain about the singular flaregun, and about how obnoxiously rare and difficult-to-find it is. In reality, that model of flaregun is probably the most common flare launcher in the world. I've got one in my car, one in my pack, and one in my house. But, no, because of "game balance", the most-common flare launcher in the world exists as a singular entity that you have to climb a mountain to get.

The whole of Timberwolf Mountain, while a nice map, can go stuff itself and die in my opinion. I have never seen another "survival game" where you free-climb up a mountain for gear. That, along with the forging mechanic, took me completely out of the game immersion-wise.

In "actual" survival, you aren't supposed to jump on top of logs or rocks, or climb trees, as the chance of falling and hurting yourself is so high. Yet, TLD expects me to, again, free-rope my way up sheer rock faces for some gear? No amount of gear, no matter what it is, is worth my life.

See, I am getting irritated just by talking about it.

4) No, forging metal is basically a set of studies. You can either go to school for it, or you can train under a master smith, who will basically teach you the same thing. You don't just pick up a hammer, heat up some steel, and go to town. Like 99% of all other human endeavors, smithing is a trained skill. 

Tell me: do you know how to forge a knife, given the materials. And I making this easy, giving you a knife-billet and a strip of carbon steel!. How do you mate the billet and the carbon steel together, how do you temper the edge, how do you quench it, how long will it take?

5) Bone sucks as an arrowhead material, in my opinion. Not because it is ineffective, it is very effective, but because it takes so long to work with. In TLD, we don't have power tools, so that means we would have to find a nice thick piece of bone, smash it, get it to a rough shape, grind it down to the right shape, then sharpen it. I have made bone arrowheads in real life, using just my hands and a hammer and a file, and it took me about 3-4 hours to make one arrowhead. With some sheet metal, some snips and a file, I made about 20 trade points in that same amount of time.

Not to mention that bone dust is hazardous. You don't want to get that in your eyes or your lungs.

[Ruruwawa]

I like the option to go to DP for the best arrowheads.  There's already so little to do in the sandbox besides eat / sleep / gather wood, a little vacation is nice sometimes.

I don't have a problem with adding primitive points to the game, but they should be inferior to forged points (from DP or gleaned).  Tradeoffs!

[Tbone555]

i generally just think this is a poor gameplay mechanic and ive seen many, many threads here saying the same.

i do like the forge, being able to craft STRONG arrowheads and improvised tools. however, we should have the option to make improvised arrows that would break after one use, incase we're in a pinch. so +1 to the idea.

[Claysmiff1702]

Thinking about it more, it's probably a good idea to return arrowhead crafting to the workbench, maybe requiring at least a simple tool kit. Leaving the process and exact tools used (tin snips and sheet metal, glass, charred wood, etc.) to the players' imagination. +1

[SteveP]

17 hours ago, Boston123 said:

The thing about forging metal being a skill/there being a manual: you can't really do that. You can read about how to forge metal all day long, but until you do it several hundred times, it just isn't going to work. To be a blacksmith, you basically need a chemistry degree, to understand how the metal is going to react when it gets heated and quenched.

Don't be so dismissive. Blacksmithing was the height of technology only 100 scant years ago and you definitely did not need a chemistry degree; you needed high-carbon steel. What you did need was instruction by the hand of a master smith. One can easily learn the necessary skills from a book or video however the art of efficiently working the metal takes time to develop. I would like to see a more involved forging mechanic where the actual temperature of the metal can be observed by its color and therefore you need to with draw it at the correct temperature to harden it. It must also be shaped and sharpened prior to hardening.

Concerning aluminum cans for points, I doubt that they would be sturdy enough to penetrate a hide. It would be easier to use glass or flint to knap points. Even if you had mild steel, a quick heat in the fire will get it soft enough to shape and it can be hardened simply by quenching. It does not need to be perfect to produce a passable sharp point. A knife on the other hand, needs a durable edge that can stand up to a lot of abuse.

I like to see the use of strategy and technology in a game; I do not like to play a game simply to run around dodging bogies.

[Boston123]

Just now, SteveP said:

Don't be so dismissive. Blacksmithing was the height of technology only 100 scant years ago and you definitely did not need a chemistry degree; you needed high-carbon steel. What you did need was instruction by the hand of a master smith. One can easily learn the necessary skills from a book or video however the art of efficiently working the metal takes time to develop. I would like to see a more involved forging mechanic where the actual temperature of the metal can be observed by its color and therefore you need to with draw it at the correct temperature to harden it. It must also be shaped and sharpened prior to hardening.

Concerning aluminum cans for points, I doubt that they would be sturdy enough to penetrate a hide. It would be easier to use glass or flint to knap points. Even if you had mild steel, a quick heat in the fire will get it soft enough to shape and it can be hardened simply by quenching. It does not need to be perfect to produce a passable sharp point. A knife on the other hand, needs a durable edge that can stand up to a lot of abuse.

I like to see the use of strategy and technology in a game; I do not like to play a game simply to run around dodging bogies.

I actually said " a chemistry degree, or instruction from a skilled smith", Steve P. Don't misquote me to make your own point, please.

The person that taught me how to work a forge actually went to college for it (along with other arts, like carpentry, mechanics, etc), and told me a major part of the course was how the chemical and physical structure of the metal changed based on how you worked it. How hammering and work-hardening changed the physical "crystal lattice" of the metal, how adding carbon made the steel harder, and what quenching and tempering did. Can you forge metal without that precise knowledge? Of course, but you would learn all that in practical/experienced terms, rather than educational. By learning the science behind the process, she was able to recognize what was happening much more effectively.

Regardless, smithing is still a trained skill. Like any other trained skill, it isn't something you can just "pick up", or read a couple of books about, and go out and do.

I can read all the survival guides I want, but that doesn't mean I will be effective at all at surviving. Just like I can read all the medical texts I want, but when the blood is pumping out of that wound, that doesn't mean I will be able to close it up.

No, you need experience, and, really, experience while receiving feedback from someone who already knows what they are doing, to correct any mistakes along the way. 

In The Long Dark, we don't have that. We don't even have decent, or even semi-decent, tools. What we have is an amateur (at best), banging on some scrap metal of unknown quality using raw coal and a ships boiler as a forge. Hell, we don't even have an anvil!

Comparatively, we could make the same exact arrowhead by cutting down and filing some sheet steel. Much less technical knowledge involved in that. Logistically simpler. I would know, I've done it in real life.

Also, making broadheads from tin cans is perfectly viable, definitely for small game and probably for large game as well. I've used them on small game, and they are perfectly sufficient. And, when they break, who cares? You can make 4 broadheads from an average can lid. 

One thing to recognize about "primitive" glass and stone arrowheads; they  will  break. Not an "if", but a "when", and, most likely, they will break the first time you shoot them into an animal. The tip is likely to snap off first. Which is why I wouldn't rely on them for actual hunting, and use them as trade goods instead. Something like this

is just as effective as a more "traditional" bifaced point, with the added benefits of being REALLY easy to make (to the point where any idiot could make one, as opposed to requiring actual knapping skill), as well as me not caring if they break.

Metal arrowheads have only one real functional benefit over the above: they all weigh the same, so balancing arrows for range and accuracy is easier. However, at close range, that doesn't really matter. I rarely make loose an arrow at an animal farther away than 15-20 meters anyways, so I am more concerned with speed than range. Shorter, heavier arrows and smaller fletchings, all day every day.

Granted, I don't really think TLD "needs" flintknapping either, as it is also a trained skill that the average survivor is unlikely to know, or learn. The arrows I linked to in the picture were used during the Mesolithic, usually by hunters that lacked knapping skills, or access to trade goods knapped by a skilled crafter, and had to "make do" themselves. Considering how they were found in the skeletons of deer and such, we know they were effective. 

Occam's Razor paraphrased: "the simplest answer is usually the best one" is my personal motto. 

[Claysmiff1702]

Honestly, these skills could all be realistically implemented into the game; knapping, forging, etc. Give these craftsman skills a low base value. 0-10? Maybe different starting characters would have different backgrounds, one being adept at certain skills and less experienced with others. I mean obviously, Boston123, you would be more proficient with forging and blacksmithing (I disgrace my last name ) than I in a survival situation, because you have more knowledge, I would have to learn to the best of my ability. Being a tradesman myself, I know these things are absolutely NOT "rocket science". Also I'm sure, most people would give it their best shot in a survival situation, no matter what they already know, with whatever resources are available (humans are pretty damn impressive). Perhaps make the crafting time take muuuuch longer/more calories/more morale implications (if morale gets added to the game, which I think would be extremely interesting) for those lacking sufficient skill. Different starting skills would also add an extra difficulty multiplier  and a serious layer of realism. Gotta start somewhere. School of hard knocks, the way I learned my trade (granted, with a master). Books could help with improving your skill to a certain (low) level (maybe most characters start with a "0" in forging skill, and require the book to even have the slightest chance of success), and everything else is just trial and error, with limited results. This is why play testing and early access are awesome. Trial and error.

[Hotzn]

On 2.6.2016 at 5:45 PM, Boston123 said:

I like the idea of using different arrowheads, it is what I do in real life. Blunt wooden points for rabbit and squirrels, metal points for deer.

I have to disagree, however, on crafted bows not being able to kill bear. My bow, that I crafted by hand, is more than capable of killing any animal in Massachusetts, black bear included.

Why would a "crafted" bow not be able to take down a bear? My bow, made of birch, is more "powerful" by a substantial magnitude than the two compound bows my father and uncle used; ~60lb draw vs 45lb draw. My wooden arrows weigh more than the aluminum ones, and, since they are shorter, travel faster.

Describing something as being obviously better simply because it is "modern" is fallacious. My hand-made arrows are "professionally made" 

Mind you, I didn't say that it's impossible to kill a bear with a crafted bow. I only said that I would prefer it to be so in this game. It's only my personal view and others may have a different view on things, but I prefer to think our Will McKenzie is not stranded in the wilderness as a survival expert. Part of the drama (granted, the drama is only an imagined one) the game conveys for me is that the player is faced with a situation he/she is neither used nor adapted to. Opening a new game, I do not like to think, "I am Will McKenzie, I don't mind crashing down in the wilderness in the Winter - indeed I welcome this opportunity to hone my already nearly perfect survival skills, and I am not in trouble". I prefer to think, "Arrrgh... I am doomed... the wolves, the cold, no food... will I be able to make it to the nest dawn?". Because of this, Will's highly advanced survival skills irritate me at times.

But maybe we can find a compromise and both want to have it so that we as players have to increase our bow-making skill by making several bows in the game before we manage to craft one that can actually take down a bear. So we would have some kind of progression there. I would presume that you also gathered practical experience in making bows before you were able to make your birch bow. I might be wrong here though, no offense intended. Just assuming because I would think of myself that I likely would need to make a lot of bows before being able to make a really strong one...

[SteveP]

I enjoy the crafting activities to the extent that they are implemented. It would add a lot of play value to the game if these activities became mini-games of skill. They should have more animations, beautiful sounds and the substantial warm fuzzy you get when you successfully create something magical using tools and your hands. I'm all for alternative ways to make arrows however this gets us to a crucial decision about the philosophy & strategy of the game. We have the rich, almost tactile feedback of the environment, serene, beautiful, terrible and exceedingly dangerous all at once. We have the rewards and brutal adrenaline scares of encounters with the wild animals. We have the crackling sights and sounds of cooking food. All of this adds to the ambience of the game.

You are very right about the lack of an anvil; if Hinterland enhances this mechanic, it would sure be great to animate the anvil, the glowing work piece and the showers of sparks when you strike it each time. It's magical in the sense that it engages our romantic imaginations!

[Eames]

In order to prevent making Desolation Point obsolete after stripping it of its monopoly on crafting, region should get a connection to Timberwolf Mountain. I know this would clash with the current Hopeless Rescue challenge, but it's for the better.

[EternityTide]

I'm not sure if you guys realise this, but I'm pretty sure there's a small forge inside the Carter Hydro Dam, where you can craft arrow heads. I think it's at the far end of the long passageway you enter through the door in Fluffy's domain, in the Turbine room.

[Boston123]

2 hours ago, EternityTide said:

I'm not sure if you guys realise this, but I'm pretty sure there's a small forge inside the Carter Hydro Dam, where you can craft arrow heads. I think it's at the far end of the long passageway you enter through the door in Fluffy's domain, in the Turbine room.

If it is there, it is new. For months, the only forge in the game world was in Desolation Point.

Regardless, even if there is a forge in the Dam, it is useless without coal. We would still have to trek to DP to get some.

[vancopower]

On 4.6.2016 at 6:37 AM, Boston123 said:

They weigh more and are less effective. Plus, at least when they were first implemented, you couldn't repair them.

I don't know any more: I don't use the silly things..

The thing about forging metal being a skill/there being a manual: you can't really do that. You can read about how to forge metal all day long, but until you do it several hundred times, it just isn't going to work. To be a blacksmith, you basically need a chemistry degree, to understand how the metal is going to react when it gets heated and quenched.

Plus, you know, scrap metal is of an unknown quality. Most scrap isn't going to have a high carbon content, and, basically, if you want even slightly-effective sharp-edged tools, you use high-carbon (read: hard) steel. You don't just hammer a beveled edge onto it, however, you also have to quench the steel, then temper it, to a specific and very exacting level of hardness. Too hard, and it shatters or chips when you go to use it. Too soft, and it is useless. PLUS,  different parts of the edge need to be of different tempers. The edge is going to be hard, but the spine of the knife/eye of the hatchet is going to be "softer" and more flexible, better able to take the shock of blows and cutting into things.

..... See, all of this is why I never wanted forging implemented in the first place. Initially, I thought it was interesting, but over time the sheer level of immersion-breaking hilariousness of it just got to me. I always wanted The Long Dark to be something different than Rust or ARK, and this whole forging mechanic is exactly the same kind of inanity those games have with regards to crafting mechanics.

-deep breath-

My personal preference for different "types" of arrowheads would be the following:

1) A charred wooden head. Shave the end of the shaft down, then harden it over some embers. Perfectly usable for small game and target-shooting, and the head will effectively never get damaged.

2) Chipped glass. Not a "stereotypical" arrowhead, either, but something like this ().

Easy to make (knock some flakes off the edge of a piece of glass. 30 seconds of work), easy to affix (carve a groove into the shaft, put in some resin, smoosh in the flake), and if they break, who cares? You can get 100 more in minutes. And, finally, effective. These "types" of arrowheads (which were used by Mesolithic hunters who lacked access to skilled flintknappers and had to make their own) were just as effective as "prettier" bifaced heads.

3) filed sheet metal: Take a pair of snips, or even the pliers of a multitool, and cut some triangles out of a piece of thin sheet steel. Use a file, or even a rock/a concrete floor, to file down a bevel on each side. 

No need to forge out an arrowhead of unknown quality, or even travel very far. 

 

Yea right all blacksmiths have chemistry degrees, Ancient Romans, Ancient Macedonians, Even Alexander the great was chemist himself or maybe Zeus helped him. You are describing the whole process like it has to meet some Euro standards for shipping, to Technopolis.   On that note no one says that Forging is easy but Impossible? I don't think so. Forging is possible and it should stay in the game. To depict the hardship of forging maybe the Survivor could slowly gain skill failing at his first 5-6 attempts but then he could gain some skill and forge easily  at some point. The next update will introduce skills I'm sure the devs will implement some similar system to make forging more realistic, and meet your Euro Standards 

[Boston123]

21 minutes ago, vancopower said:

 

Yea right all blacksmiths have chemistry degrees, Ancient Romans, Ancient Macedonians, Even Alexander the great was chemist himself or maybe Zeus helped him. You are describing the whole process like it has to meet some Euro standards for shipping, to Technopolis.   On that note no one says that Forging is easy but Impossible? I don't think so. Forging is possible and it should stay in the game. To depict the hardship of forging maybe the Survivor could slowly gain skill failing at his first 5-6 attempts but then he could gain some skill and forge easily  at some point. The next update will introduce skills I'm sure the devs will implement some similar system to make forging more realistic, and meet your Euro Standards 

No, but they apprenticed under an already-skilled blacksmith, who taught them the traits of the metal, how to work them, and what to look for.

They learned what colors the metal would turn at certain hardnesses, how to work and quench metal so it wouldn't shatter, how to drive off moisture so the metal wouldn't have air-pockets inside the matrix of the crystals, what hardness of steel was best for certain tools, etc

They didn't just pick up a hammer and go to town.

Tell me, if you suddenly found yourself in a situation like The Long Dark, would you proceed to pick up a piece of scrap metal, heat it up in a coal-fire (all while breathing in some nice brain-cell-killing fumes!) and beat it to a rough shape..... or would you cut some shapes out of scrap metal and file an edge onto them? One takes hours of hard labor, while the other takes a couple of minutes, that you can do while sitting in a comfy chair.

I never said forging was impossible, I said that is is difficult, and that there are other methods that are as viable, more accessible, and much easier. Why do things the hard way?

[EternityTide]

1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

If it is there, it is new. For months, the only forge in the game world was in Desolation Point.

Regardless, even if there is a forge in the Dam, it is useless without coal. We would still have to trek to DP to get some.

Or you go to the mineshaft connecting Coastal Highway with Pleasant Valley

 

[Patrick Carlson]

3 hours ago, EternityTide said:

I'm not sure if you guys realise this, but I'm pretty sure there's a small forge inside the Carter Hydro Dam, where you can craft arrow heads. I think it's at the far end of the long passageway you enter through the door in Fluffy's domain, in the Turbine room.

Where did you hear this? The only Forge currently in the game is located in Desolation Point.

There is a crafting table in the lower turbine room, is that what you mean?

[vancopower]

1 minute ago, Boston123 said:

No, but they apprenticed under an already-skilled blacksmith, who taught them the traits of the metal, how to work them, and what to look for.

They learned what colors the metal would turn at certain hardnesses, how to work and quench metal so it wouldn't shatter, how to drive off moisture so the metal wouldn't have air-pockets inside the matrix of the crystals, what hardness of steel was best for certain tools, etc

They didn't just pick up a hammer and go to town.

Tell me, if you suddenly found yourself in a situation like The Long Dark, would you proceed to pick up a piece of scrap metal, heat it up in a coal-fire (all while breathing in some nice brain-cell-killing fumes!) and beat it to a rough shape..... or would you cut some shapes out of scrap metal and file an edge onto them? One takes hours of hard labor, while the other takes a couple of minutes, that you can do while sitting in a comfy chair.

I never said forging was impossible, I said that is is difficult, and that there are other methods that are as viable, more accessible, and much easier. Why do things the hard way?

God forbid if I find myself in same kind of situation brain-cell-killing fumes or forging will be the last thing on my mind. 90% of the time I will wonder how to get back home, if everyone there are alright. But after a while when I suppose I'll come with the terms with my predicament, and man up and yes if the opportunity presents itself Forge some bad ass spear, or a shiv at least. I don't know if I will succeed or not but making flimsy tools out of easily braking materials will not be my go to plan, even if it is the easier method. Seriously do you expect to fight of a wolf with glass knife ? the mere growling and teeth showing it will be enough to soil your pants. You will be lucky enough to survive even with metal spear in your hand.  Lets look at it this way you have ton of will power and I mean Chanting a viking death chant style, and somehow you manage to stick the wolf with you glass knife which will brake on the first or second strike do you think that the wolf will just walk away? It will tear you to shreds. Sure maybe it will die too if you gut it's belly or some soft spot but you will not survive the encounter. However if you have metal knife, there is a chance that it will back down, you even do not need to stab it twice just press on the first stab. Since metal tools do not brake you can inflict a ton of pain and damage which I'm 100% positive will detour the wolf and if you are lucky you can get a single bite too. Did you know that wars began as soon as the first sword was forged? There was a show explaining that I think it was called The mankind story of all of us. Metal is metal, let's not kid ourselves.

[Boston123]

5 minutes ago, vancopower said:

God forbid if I find myself in same kind of situation brain-cell-killing fumes or forging will be the last thing on my mind. 90% of the time I will wonder how to get back home, if everyone there are alright. But after a while when I suppose I'll come with the terms with my predicament, and man up and yes if the opportunity presents itself Forge some bad ass spear, or a shiv at least. I don't know if I will succeed or not but making flimsy tools out of easily braking materials will not be my go to plan, even if it is the easier method. Seriously do you expect to fight of a wolf with glass knife ? the mere growling and teeth showing it will be enough to soil your pants. You will be lucky enough to survive even with metal spear in your hand.  Lets look at it this way you have ton of will power and I mean Chanting a viking death chant style, and somehow you manage to stick the wolf with you glass knife which will brake on the first or second strike do you think that the wolf will just walk away? It will tear you to shreds. Sure maybe it will die too if you gut it's belly or some soft spot but you will not survive the encounter. However if you have metal knife, there is a chance that it will back down, you even do not need to stab it twice just press on the first stab. Since metal tools do not brake you can inflict a ton of pain and damage which I'm 100% positive will detour the wolf and if you are lucky you can get a single bite too. Did you know that wars began as soon as the first sword was forged? There was a show explaining that I think it was called The mankind story of all of us. Metal is metal, let's not kid ourselves.

1) use line breaks and paragraphs, please. It is already difficult enough trying to decipher your non-ending stream of consciousness, much less when it is a giant wall of text.

2) Yes, I expect the wolf to run away. Contrary to what this game portrays, predators are very smart, and will usually avoid attacking outright if there is even a chance of getting hurt by prey. This is why wolves hunt in packs in real life; by doing so, they lessen the ability of the prey to retaliate.

If I had a spear, even one made of wood or glass, I would lift that thing up i the air, raise my arms, and start screaming and shouting as loud as I could. Doing that makes me larger and more intimidating, and make it frightening for the wolf to attack me.

In this game, I feel like the wolves are actually threatened by my presence, as opposed to hunting me for food. It is approaching me slowly, growling, as opposed to sneaking up from behind and jumping on my shoulders. Wolves and dogs, while not exactly alike, have similar-enough body language to determine that the wolf is likely making a threat display, trying to assert its dominance because it is scared, confused , whatever.

http://www.runningwiththewolves.org/behavior2.htm.

3) Given a weapon, any sort of weapon, from a knife to a shiv to a chunk of firewood, I would expect to be able to fight off any wolf, so long as it were one-on-one and I didn't panic. The average human being is stronger than a wolf, and so long as I don't get down on the ground and wrestle with it, the human being has much more leverage. Besides, wolves have one weapon, their teeth, while humans have two, and can make weapons much more lethal than wolves. Take a piece of wood (a club, an axe handle, etc), and jam it in the wolves mouth. Boom, the wolf has no weapon. Now, go for the throat. Kick, punch, bite.

Wolves hunt through injuries all the time in the real world, but that is when they have a pack to back them up while they fall back. Jam a 3 in long shard of glass into a wolves throat, and it will be hurt. Who cares if the shard breaks? The wolf will freak out, run away, and will be bleeding like a stuck pig.

4) actually, "wars" recognizable as such (with organized units, formations, fortified settlements, etc) began LONNNNGGGG before swords were made, back in the Neolithic, or "New Stone Age". Said warfare was fought with spears, bows, knives and clubs. We actually have documentation of when swords where first made (hint: they weren't made, they were cast, from bronze). The Bronze Age was when weapons made specifically for fighting other humans were made, not just for fighting and hunting. But warfare has been a part of humanity's soul for as long as we were human. Give a man a stick, and he will make a spear or a club, 9 times out of 10.

Regardless, we are getting off topic. Start up a new thread if you want.

[vancopower]

22 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

1) use line breaks and paragraphs, please. It is already difficult enough trying to decipher your non-ending stream of consciousness, much less when it is a giant wall of text.

2) Yes, I expect the wolf to run away. Contrary to what this game portrays, predators are very smart, and will usually avoid attacking outright if there is even a chance of getting hurt by prey. This is why wolves hunt in packs in real life; by doing so, they lessen the ability of the prey to retaliate.

If I had a spear, even one made of wood or glass, I would lift that thing up i the air, raise my arms, and start screaming and shouting as loud as I could. Doing that makes me larger and more intimidating, and make it frightening for the wolf to attack me.

In this game, I feel like the wolves are actually threatened by my presence, as opposed to hunting me for food. It is approaching me slowly, growling, as opposed to sneaking up from behind and jumping on my shoulders. Wolves and dogs, while not exactly alike, have similar-enough body language to determine that the wolf is likely making a threat display, trying to assert its dominance because it is scared, confused , whatever.

http://www.runningwiththewolves.org/behavior2.htm.

3) Given a weapon, any sort of weapon, from a knife to a shiv to a chunk of firewood, I would expect to be able to fight off any wolf, so long as it were one-on-one and I didn't panic. The average human being is stronger than a wolf, and so long as I don't get down on the ground and wrestle with it, the human being has much more leverage. Besides, wolves have one weapon, their teeth, while humans have two, and can make weapons much more lethal than wolves. Take a piece of wood (a club, an axe handle, etc), and jam it in the wolves mouth. Boom, the wolf has no weapon. Now, go for the throat. Kick, punch, bite.

Wolves hunt through injuries all the time in the real world, but that is when they have a pack to back them up while they fall back. Jam a 3 in long shard of glass into a wolves throat, and it will be hurt. Who cares if the shard breaks? The wolf will freak out, run away, and will be bleeding like a stuck pig.

4) actually, "wars" recognizable as such (with organized units, formations, fortified settlements, etc) began LONNNNGGGG before swords were made, back in the Neolithic, or "New Stone Age". Said warfare was fought with spears, bows, knives and clubs. We actually have documentation of when swords where first made (hint: they weren't made, they were cast, from bronze). The Bronze Age was when weapons made specifically for fighting other humans were made, not just for fighting and hunting. But warfare has been a part of humanity's soul for as long as we were human. Give a man a stick, and he will make a spear or a club, 9 times out of 10.

Regardless, we are getting off topic. Start up a new thread if you want.

Dude it is a wolf not a dog, it does not back down no matter how much you scream. Plus it is probably starving, and yes it is smart so no matter what you do your theatrics will not work.  An easier option will be fire, wildlife runs from fire. But it will be coming back. Sooner or later you'll have to face it and fight it and kill it.

I can give you this example from real life experience. A man I know shot a wild boar, but he used small slugs and the boar just charged him it wasn't even a big boar. Then when it came close grabbing his leg and tearing it to shreds he used steel knife and killed the boar by burrowing it in it's skull.

However the hunter was hospitalized immediately thankfully he went with friends and they found him bleeding on the ground.  Now if a boar can do that imagine what a hungry wolf will do to you when you make clown of yourself waving your flimsy knife around yes?

About wars I was thinking about organized armies not couple of neanderthals waving sticks. Just watch the show it is amazing, also religion began to appear at the same time. Otherwise yea no matter how we sugarcoat it we humans are violent creatures, it is easier to take something then to work for it.