[Updated] CLARIFICATION: How Intestinal Parasites (Trichinosis) Works (as of v.326+)

[Salty Crackers]

There are like 2 on Desolation Point (by the entrance), but I don't think they spawn bark.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Salty Crackers

[Vhalkyrie]

Birch tea cure seems more reasonable than depleting antibiotics.   Hoping for the tea patch

Edited April 22, 2016 by Vhalkyrie

[cekivi]

Clearly I need to explore the maps more. I've been playing mostly on Timberwolf Mountain and haven't come across many consistent birch bark drops.

[TSmith]

Dont know what the dev's are going to do about the parasite issue, but certainly something needs to be done about it

 

+ 1 on the birch bark tea

[Patrick Carlson]

We've updated the information above, as of hotfix v.326. Be sure to read it, spend some quality time with the new tuning and let us know what you think!

[KD7BCH]

Hey Patrick I commend you guys on moving fast with the mechanic. Can we get some data on why it was changed? Were infections occurring too quickly?

[KD7BCH]

Drew a wolf in with my one arrow and bow from the frozen pond where the massive crow feather farm is   Killed it. Harvested it got about 9lbs of meat. Cooked the meat. Ate the meat in the course of one day. 

Reported percentage of infection went from 1% to 4% to 9% to 14%. Is this working as intended? Also after consuming no more of this meat the next day all chances were gone. I believe this is too drastic of a reprieve. Should not your odds be cut in half per day so you always have a chance of infection rather than have it completely eliminated after 24 hours? 

Anyway also to report, you cannot access the medical screen without having an ailment. So far as I know. I would like to be able to access this screen at anytime ailment or not, It gives a good statue readout on your medical supplies and you can't get this readout without this screen.

[selfless]

Who is eating more than 1kg of meat per day?!? Honestly...

[hauteecolerider]

8 minutes ago, selfless said:

Who is eating more than 1kg of meat per day?!? Honestly...

Me.

Typically 3-4 kg of meat (wolf or deer) per day keeps me going on Voyager.

[Scyzara]

17 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

We've updated the information above, as of hotfix v.326. Be sure to read it, spend some quality time with the new tuning and let us know what you think!

Sorry to tell you, but your trichinosis hotfix (V.326) definitely overshot the target in my opinion.

I've tested the issue for 10 ingame days now and my parasite risk debuff constantly runs out although my diet consists of 90%+ wolf meat in Stalker mode.

I eat 3.5kg of wolf meat -> 14% infection risk, then I do my daily chores, wait until I'm almost starving and eat a few cattail stalks or one piece of rabbit meat afterwards. Once I'm almost starving again my parasite debuff has worn out and I can eat 3.5kg wolf meat again. One day I didn't even need the rabbit snack in between. I'm not starving myself or trying to exploit the mechanics in any way on purpose, but the risk still runs out all the time without ever triggering an infection. 

I haven't contracted parasites a single time yet (14% risk each day for 10 days in a row). May be luck of course, but it somehow gives me the feeling parasites aren't dangerous at all.

If you want to encourage people to eat a balanced diet (e.g. 50% kcal from carnivore meat and 50% kcal from herbivore meat or fish), you definitely need to extend the time until the debuff runs out. And not just by 3 hours, but by at least 12-18 hours or so. (And even that won't be enough to prevent a 100% carnivore meat diet if people starve themselves). Just my 2 cent.

Alternatively, you could also rework the whole system, reintroduce a cumulative risk again and consider birch bark tea (or whatever else infinite resource you find fitting) as a cure. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Scyzara

[KD7BCH]

I have been testing this too. Steadily increasing my mix of predator meat. My maximum level have been above 20% for several days. At which point I would expect to have an infection once every five days but have not yet. Need a few more real world days to test. I will dramatically increase the mix if I don't score any hits to 100% meat. 

Two things to note. The cutoff time for infection of 24 hours is probably too low. Routinely have to eat predator meat 4-5 pieces to get to 20% risk and this would be a typical daily maximum consumption when mixed with other sources. Even 4-5 full cut pieces is going to be a low risk issue.

Other issue, is cooked meat no longer seems to decay in a container. At least not at the rates I'm used to seeing. Generally meat would decay at 1-3% per day or greater in storage if I recall correct. Now it seems in the file cabinet in Camp Office I can't get cooked meat to decay at all.  

[lupineways]

3 hours ago, Scyzara said:

Sorry to tell you, but your trichinosis hotfix (V.326) definitely overshot the target in my opinion.

I've tested the issue for 10 ingame days now and my parasite risk debuff constantly wears out although my diet consists of 90%+ wolf meat in Stalker mode. (I eat 3.5kg of wolf meat -> 14% infection risk, then I do my daily chores, wait until I'm almost starving and eat a few cattail stalks or one piece of rabbit meat afterwards. Once I'm almost starving again my parasite debuff has worn out and I can eat 3.5kg wolf meat again. One day I didn't even need the rabbit snack in between.) I'm not starving myself or trying to exploit the mechanics in any way on purpose, but the risk still runs out all the time without ever triggering an infection. 

I haven't contracted parasites a single time yet (14% risk each day for 10 days in a row). May be luck of course, but it somehow gives me the feeling parasites aren't dangerous at all.

If you want to encourage people to eat a balanced diet (e.g. 50% carnivore meat and 50% herbivore meat or fish), you definitely need to extend the time until the debuff wears out. And not just by 3 hours, but by at least 12-18 hours or so. (And even that won't be enough to prevent a 100% carnivore meat diet if people starve themselves). Just my 2 cent.

Alternatively, you could also rework the whole system, reintroduce a cumulative risk again and consider birch bark tea (or whatever else infinite resource you find fitting) as a cure. 

I think you are probably just lucky or maybe the way the percentage risk is working isn't exactly as we expect? What wasn't clear to me is when the game actually tests to see if we contract the parasites. Is it on the 24 hour cycle and applies the percentage chance right before the percent resets? If so, I think, if you keep living off cooked wolf meet you will almost definitely contract it in sooner rather than later unless you are incredibly lucky. The statistical chances of you making it past 10 days without contracting parasites are only about 17.5%. That is pretty lucky. I could do some testing similar to what you are doing so see what happens, so far i was keeping to to only 1 or 2 wolf steaks every on some days to keep from depleting my other meat stores too quickly. I am definitely curious of the long term survival implications of the parasites. I think they it has a good potential to be a resource drain if we eat carnivore meat carelessly and regularly.

I'll try getting my percent up to 14 every day and let you know how it goes.

[lupineways]

2 hours ago, KD7BCH said:

I have been testing this too. Steadily increasing my mix of predator meat. My maximum level have been above 20% for several days. At which point I would expect to have an infection once every five days but have not yet. Need a few more real world days to test. I will dramatically increase the mix if I don't score any hits to 100% meat. 

Two things to note. The cutoff time for infection of 24 hours is probably too low. Routinely have to eat predator meat 4-5 pieces to get to 20% risk and this would be a typical daily maximum consumption when mixed with other sources. Even 4-5 full cut pieces is going to be a low risk issue.

Other issue, is cooked meat no longer seems to decay in a container. At least not at the rates I'm used to seeing. Generally meat would decay at 1-3% per day or greater in storage if I recall correct. Now it seems in the file cabinet in Camp Office I can't get cooked meat to decay at all.  

I noticed the meat in containers not decaying quickly as well.

[lupineways]

Okay that didn't take long.

Day 88 - percentage chance to 19% - No Parasites

Day 89 - percentage chance to 19% - Contracted Parasites

I got a little unlucky, but 2 days eating wolf meat at that level is about a 30 percent chance of contracting intestinal parasites. Odds are against you if you eat wolf regularly, especially in quantity. 

 

Edit: It appears you can eat wolf meat without any consequence while you actually have the condition. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by lupineways

[Jolan]

On 4/21/2016 at 5:51 PM, cekivi said:

+1

And according to Dr. Google it's also a natural cure for worms so it's a real cure too

I guess they'd need to add more birch trees then. Right now I only remember seeing them on Timberwolf Mountain.

there's some in the Ravine, a whole bunch in pleasant valley, and a few here and there else where.  I think I saw one or two in Coastal 

[Scyzara]

18 hours ago, lupineways said:

I think you are probably just lucky or maybe the way the percentage risk is working isn't exactly as we expect? What wasn't clear to me is when the game actually tests to see if we contract the parasites. Is it on the 24 hour cycle and applies the percentage chance right before the percent resets? If so, I think, if you keep living off cooked wolf meet you will almost definitely contract it in sooner rather than later unless you are incredibly lucky.

Luck seems to be my middle name. I continued my wolf diet (14% risk/day) and finally contracted parasites on day 14. So far so good - I'm relieved to see the parasite risk is actually a risk (unlike the hypothermia or infection risk which is merely a timer). Yes, the roll for the outbreak of intestinal parasites seems to happen 24 hours after you've consumed the last carnivore meat (you either get informed that the risk has passed or that you've contracted parasites at this point). 

I, too, noticed it's possible to eat as much carnivore meat as you want during the reishi tea treatment period and used this as an opportunity to go a bit bear-hunting. Almost 60kg of non-decaying bear meat (if kept in the hatch inside the mountaineer's cabin, it doesn't seem to decay at all) are quite some reserve...

I really liked the course of the parasite treatment itself, the relative reishi tea cost (= about 1/6th or so of the overall mushroom amount in TWM, not counting antibiotics) and the slight condition decrease in the late infection phase. Nothing to complain about that at all.

I only still wish the parasite risk debuff reset timer was longer. I'll try a 2 pieces of bear/1 piece of deer (4% infection risk/day) diet during the next few dozens of days and see how this works out.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Scyzara

[Ohbal]

I'm on the opposite side of the luck rainbow it seems... 

Took me two draws in my Voyager game to get the parasites. I was preparing to experiment with the rabbits+fishing diet, and wanted to finish my wolf and bear reserves. First day I got my percentage up to 19%. Packed some snares and fishing lines and head to Jack Rabbit. That day I eat fish only. Set up the snares and take shelter at the house. Next day the risk went off, so I eat all the meat I had left. Chances went up to 15%. Next day at dawn: boom, parasites!  

It may seem low chances for some, but eventually everybody will run out of reishi or antibiotics... even the luckier ones! XD

I'm all for tweaking the mechanics. I really like the road @Scyzara suggests: 

+ adding a infinite resource as source of treatment. Birch bark sounds nice. Or make mushrooms respawn every 365 days (or add any random high humber). The more reasons to get out of the cabins, the better. 

+ make the debuff last for longer by making the risk decrease gradually. For example: 10% every 24h

+ (alternative) implement a safe way to cook meat. Water + Bowl + really high temperature fire, for example.

I like the idea behind this new affliction, but as it's right now, aiming as I aim for long-term survival, carnivores are off the menu. I won't throw away the antibiotics like that, having other safer alternatives. Not complaining, just mentioning   

 

On 23/4/2016 at 4:06 PM, KD7BCH said:

Other issue, is cooked meat no longer seems to decay in a container. At least not at the rates I'm used to seeing. Generally meat would decay at 1-3% per day or greater in storage if I recall correct. Now it seems in the file cabinet in Camp Office I can't get cooked meat to decay at all.  

 

22 hours ago, lupineways said:

I noticed the meat in containers not decaying quickly as well.

Noticed this as well... but not so sure its an issue, could be intended?

Edited April 24, 2016 by Ohbal

[Ruruwawa]

Interesting thread, and I agree with a lot of the suggestions.  

• I actually like the current implementation (with some tweaks).  It's a real risk to manage without being too "math-y" for the average player.
• I'd love the birch bark tea (or similar) renewable natural remedy.  As @Obhal says, the more reasons to get out of the cabin, the better.
• The 24hr risk-period timer seems perfect for Voyageur.  Extending the risk-period timer for Stalker sounds like a worthwhile tweak.

Regarding meat, I've been experimenting with bear meat.  As Obhal mentions the decay rate is a lot slower now.  Probably needs tuning, but I'm not sure that slower decay is necessarily a bad thing.  I prefer a more nuanced survival system than just eat>drink>sleep>repeat, and that seems to be the direction Hinterland is taking the game.  It would be great to have other urgent tasks (beyond the startup task of gearing up) to tradeoff my time/condition expenditures with, beyond just feeding myself.

Back to meat decay.  So far I've observed (only 30hr gameplay so terribad data):

• In a container (indoors or out): no decay for either cooked or raw
• Outdoors on the ground (freezing temperatures): nearly as good as a container.  No decay for cooked in 30 hrs, raw just 1% decay. 
• In your pack or on an indoors floor: very slow decay.  Raw seems to decay 2.5x faster than cooked

[GorillaDust]

Hi Patrick - any idea when the 326/7 hotfixes will hit Xbox One?

I'm being annihilated with the 325 version of Parasites - I caught it after eating 4 pieces of wolf meat over 4 days (Bad luck for me - 8% risk = infection). I have used all of the antibiotics and all the Reishi I could find in Mystery Lake and still have six more days of parasites left... :\

 

Edit: Also, I'd like to echo somebody else's request elsewhere on these forums to please rebalance fishing to account for parasites. I would love to use fishing more often except the weight/calorie ratio is far too prohibitive.

Edited April 25, 2016 by GorillaDust

[grovester]

Parasites would be killed by slicing the meat thinly and then boiling.  You know, make a nice soup.  I get the idea that you can't just survive on wolf/bear meat alone, but this is a person who is resourceful enough to make a wolfskin coat; cutting some meat up and putting it in a soup really wouldn't present much of a challenge.

 

Maybe scurvy instead?

[cekivi]

22 minutes ago, grovester said:

Parasites would be killed by slicing the meat thinly and then boiling.  You know, make a nice soup.  I get the idea that you can't just survive on wolf/bear meat alone, but this is a person who is resourceful enough to make a wolfskin coat; cutting some meat up and putting it in a soup really wouldn't present much of a challenge.

 

Maybe scurvy instead?

Scurvy would be interesting. It would give a whole other dimension to rose hip tea. Not to mention making it a vital survival supply!

[Vhalkyrie]

I completed my test trial of parasites.  Overall it's pretty tame.  The only issue I have with it is the antibiotic treatment is not appropriate.  Unless this is intended to be some kind of bacterial parasite (is there such a thing?), the course of antibiotics doesn't make sense.  I totally agree with the suggestions for birch bark tea, which coincidentally happens to be a real world remedy for intestinal parasites.  It's lore fitting for the region too.

While I already have been eating mostly rabbit and fish, the deterrent not to eat wolf meat is probably altering my behavior in a positive way.  I had opportunities to kill a wolf and instead chose non confrontation because I have enough hides, and the meat is sketchy.  So my only constructive feedback on this addition is that the remedy isn't lore fitting.

[Dinhammer]

I suppose the devs intend the in-game antibiotic to be metronidazole, which is actually effective against both bacteria (particularly anaerobes) and parasites.  Some fun reading for microbiology geeks about why:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

 

 

 

[cekivi]

3 minutes ago, Dinhammer said:

I suppose the devs intend the in-game antibiotic to be metronidazole, which is actually effective against both bacteria (particularly anaerobes) and parasites.  Some fun reading for microbiology geeks about why:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

 

 

 

That article is both interesting and slightly disturbing. Abscesses...

Still, penicillin or amoxicillin are both more common. Although, to be honest, likely no antibiotics would be found in a random house since they all need to be prescribed. 

[Vhalkyrie]

9 minutes ago, Dinhammer said:

I suppose the devs intend the in-game antibiotic to be metronidazole, which is actually effective against both bacteria (particularly anaerobes) and parasites.  Some fun reading for microbiology geeks about why:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89320/

 

 

 

Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing that.  Though given how uncommonly known it is, it seems odd that it would happen to be in the random medicine cabinets in post-apocalyptic Canada?   I still favor the birch tea idea.  It would require collection outdoors and perhaps to far areas in order to gather.  Thematically, it fits.