Official modding support

[nicko]

totally different games also spam crap game

[FINDarkside]

10 minutes ago, nicko said:

totally different games also spam crap game

Great arguments mate. You said that "What usually happens", so you clearly were not talking about tld.

I have posted an example where modding and early access works great, now it's your turn to give an example of a game that devs abandoned  because of modding.

[Majales]

20 hours ago, SteveP said:

Which other Steam games support official modding and are they successful as a result of it?

Kerbal Space Program. Some mods was even added to the official game with updates and KSP is running on Unity engine also. Developers are modders of KSP also

But as was stated, modding game in a developement will be mess for bug hunting.

[nicko]

who knows!

HT did say they will support modding.  I just hope they take a long time to do it

[cowboymrh]

       I'd like to think we'll all be patient and take Raphael at his word. I'm sure Hinterlands has their hands full with the story line right now, and they really don't need another major project (modding support) to tackle at this moment.

      I'm sure that after the story mode is released and refined, and things settle down a bit, the modding issue will become more of a realistic possibility as Raphael stated.

[Viktor Kvasnica]

6 hours ago, FINDarkside said:

Which basically means that currently you are against modding, there's really no way around that. You can't say that "we are not against modding, but if you talk about modding you are banned". That's like saying that "I support immigration as long as the immigrants don't come in my country, and if I at some point decide to take immigrants I get to handpick them myself". Of course you have the right to be against modding, but please do not try to act like you are in favor of modding. Most of the games that have mods don't even have this so called "official modding". For example Just Cause 2 (and hopefully JC3) multiplayer were made with no mod support.

I think there is a misunderstanding. As Raphael said more than once, they (Hinterland) are not against an official modding at all: the modding support is on their road-map and considered seriously. They are (strongly) against the UNOFFICIAL modding, or, technically, hacking the game and compromising their creation (or intellectual property). I can understand that: if I had invested so much time, effort and hard-work to create something as unique as this game is, an artwork, I would be definitely against changing it (or modding/hacking it) without my knowledge and permission/acceptance. I thing that folks at Hinterland wants to say: "We are all in to the modding but in a way it will be fair and acceptable to us.".

[Raphael van Lierop]

22 hours ago, grimreefer24601 said:

I understand you don't support it, but can we discuss it?  Can I share with people here how to "unofficially" mod this game?  I've shared before, and had my comments deleted.

 

Will you consider bringing back the console?  I spilled the beans, so I guess it's my fault, but I don't think it ruins the game for players to access the console.

No.

[Raphael van Lierop]

21 hours ago, grimreefer24601 said:

A lot of that modding was the joy of figuring it out.  You didn't "officially" mod those games I'd bet.  You dug, and discovered and tweaked until you figured those games out.

My hacking has pointed out at least one bug in the game, and likely two.

But really, that's not the point.  If you're a modder, you understand that it's the discovery of what we can do that compels us.  What would you do?  If you knew how to mod Unity? And loved this game?

I used the editing tools provided with the games I modded, so yes, I modded them officially.

What would I do? If I respected the developer and their wishes, I'd wait until they were ready to support my modding efforts in a way that they would be happy with.  

 

[hauteecolerider]

Let me ask this question:

Are you talking about modding this game while it is still in Sandbox mode? Before the final version has been released? Because it sounds to me like some of you are advocating just that. And I'm against it, as to me, that is not only hacking the game, but stealing intellectual property. As a creative person, I resent that. You are not letting the devs present their final vision to us of what the game should be. What should be happening right now is that we give constructive feedback to the devs as to what we like and don't like about the game, but ultimately the decision is theirs whether or not to implement those changes.

Or are you talking about modding this game after it is completed? After the full Story mode has been released? Mind you, that might take a year or more, if I understand the roadmap correctly. In that case I'm cool - after all that is the impression I get from Raphael and Patrick and the Hinterland official line generally. And that is exactly what happens with games like Fallout and Skyrim. 

We have no input in the development of those games. Yet they are released with editors that allow us to mod those games to our hearts' content as long as we don't make a profit. Again, that goes back to theft of intellectual property. 

No one told Leonardo da Vinci how to paint Mona Lisa. Likewise, what we do with the finished image is up to us. If we want to take a copy of the Mona Lisa and put a mustache on her because we think she looks cooler with one, no one is going to stop us. 

Altering the original game files is hacking, piracy or bootleg. Adding content to the original game, including changing how the leveling system works, or how to start fires, is modding. And for that to be supported by the devs, we have to let them finish it first!!

[Raphael van Lierop]

26 minutes ago, hauteecolerider said:

Let me ask this question:

Are you talking about modding this game while it is still in Sandbox mode? Before the final version has been released? Because it sounds to me like some of you are advocating just that. And I'm against it, as to me, that is not only hacking the game, but stealing intellectual property. As a creative person, I resent that. You are not letting the devs present their final vision to us of what the game should be. What should be happening right now is that we give constructive feedback to the devs as to what we like and don't like about the game, but ultimately the decision is theirs whether or not to implement those changes.

Or are you talking about modding this game after it is completed? After the full Story mode has been released? Mind you, that might take a year or more, if I understand the roadmap correctly. In that case I'm cool - after all that is the impression I get from Raphael and Patrick and the Hinterland official line generally. And that is exactly what happens with games like Fallout and Skyrim. 

We have no input in the development of those games. Yet they are released with editors that allow us to mod those games to our hearts' content as long as we don't make a profit. Again, that goes back to theft of intellectual property. 

No one told Leonardo da Vinci how to paint Mona Lisa. Likewise, what we do with the finished image is up to us. If we want to take a copy of the Mona Lisa and put a mustache on her because we think she looks cooler with one, no one is going to stop us. 

Altering the original game files is hacking, piracy or bootleg. Adding content to the original game, including changing how the leveling system works, or how to start fires, is modding. And for that to be supported by the devs, we have to let them finish it first!!

Exactly.

[cowboymrh]

There's really no rocket science to this topic folks!!

You either have the class, dignity, and maturity to WAIT until Raphael says that modding for this game is supported,   ......... or you don't!!

Think of it like someone coming into YOUR HOME un-invited, when you're not around, and messing with all of your personal belongings ..... none of us would like that!!

Just my personal opinion!

[FINDarkside]

4 minutes ago, cowboymrh said:

Think of it like someone coming into YOUR HOME un-invited, when you're not around, and messing with all of your personal belongings ..... none of us would like that!!

It's more like renting a house and telling that you are not allowed to move, add or remove any furniture. Saying that modding is "stealing intellectual property" is just ignorant. 

[polarnomad]

8 minutes ago, FINDarkside said:

It's more like renting a house and telling that you are not allowed to move, add or remove any furniture. Saying that modding is "stealing intellectual property" is just ignorant. 

Hinterland has made it clear they do not want unofficial modding.  That is their prerogative.  There will be modding support when they are ready.  Just mod something else in the meantime.

[Scyzara]

17 minutes ago, FINDarkside said:

It's more like renting a house and telling that you are not allowed to move, add or remove any furniture. Saying that modding is "stealing intellectual property" is just ignorant. 

Changing furniture in a rented house is a really poor metaphor for modding. 

If you rent a house or apartment, you are legally entitled to change its interior (furniture, wall colors, whatever) to your liking as long as the changes are reversible, don't damage the building and don't endanger or disturb your neighbors. Your landlord isn't allowed to forbid such changes unless it's specifically mentioned in the rental contract. At least it's like that in Germany, might be different in other countries of course.

Buying a game on the other hand does certainly not mean you have any legal claim to access or change its code. Games are like books or films in this regard. Just because you bought a book doesn't mean you have any legal claim to rewrite a few words and spread your own edited version afterwards. 

If you buy a book or a videogame, you're actually only buying the right to read the book (or play the game), nothing else.

I have no clue where the idea comes from that buying a game automatically gives you the entitlement to change its code. 

[FINDarkside]

1 hour ago, Scyzara said:

Buying a game on the other hand does certainly not mean you have any legal claim to access or change its code.

It's not that simple though, I doubt that modifying software is automatically illegal in any country. EULA probably prohibits reverse engineering and modifying the game, but then again it's not clear what counts as reverse engineering or modifying the game because It's possible to make mods without modifying any of the original game files. It also depends on what you were doing, circumventing DRM is not the same as fixing a bug for example. The enforceability of the EULA again depends on many factors like the country and whether it was accepted before or after buying the software. To make it more confusing throw in stuff like fair use and DMCA exceptions and now it's definitely not that clear anymore. 

And to not going too offtipic, the point was that renting a house was actually pretty good methaphor.

[cowboymrh]

I'll get in my last thoughts on this topic since I think it is destined to be locked soon.

The "renting the house" methaphor only appeals to someone who's going to say whatever they need to say to justify their behavior, rather than respecting the obvious wishes of the game developer.

 

[Scyzara]

I'll try to explain it again:

If you rent a house, you have the legal right to change its furniture. Law says so.

E.g. in Germany, your rights as a tenant are described in the bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (which is our civil law code). Other countries have different jurisdiction systems ofc, but the rights and responsibilities of tenants and landlords are most likely recorded by laws more or less everywhere.

However, I'm pretty sure there is no law in no country on planet Earth that says you have the legal claim to access and change a game's code just because you bought it. No matter whether modding is considered legal or illegal under whatever special circumstances, you simply have no general entitlement to mod a game because there is no law giving you this right.

That's why your metaphor is unfitting. You're comparing a situation where you do have a legal claim with another situation where you don't have any legal claims.

Apart from that, I agree to @cowboymrh. I doubt leaving this thread open will do much good.

[selfless]

Copyrights only protect against 3rd parties profiting from the original work of the rights holder.  There is nothing that prohibits a legal purchaser from doing whatever he pleases to the copy he purchased provided he does not attempt to profit from any copying, sharing, or modification without the holder's consent.  Do what you want on your own system.  Just don't share it.

[Viktor Kvasnica]

Folks, can we, please, just stop talking about modding the game via hacking and respect the developers/Hinterland? It has been said enough on this matter. I had not created this topic/poll just to discuss hacking and/or legal aspects of the modding. I do not want to lock the topic - I want to leave it opened for CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts. Respect the developers and let them continue to work on this amazing game...

I think it will be more constructive to focus on subjects as:

• How do you imagine the modding could be done?
• What aspects of the game would you like to mod the most in the future?
• Other constructive and interesting aspects of OFFICIAL modding.

[cekivi]

Back on topic, I'm hoping for Steam Workshop integration (although that doesn't help the XBox crowd much) and I'd love to be able to play player made maps. I don't know if I'll ever have time to mod myself but it would be neat to see other parts of the world integrated into the game. If Hinterlands added other terrain types you could have The Long Dark: Sahara, The Long Dark: Amazon or maybe even The Long Dark: New York. All interesting places to explore

[cekivi]

That's OK. I don't either

[polarnomad]

 

2 hours ago, cekivi said:

That's OK. I don't either

Oops.  I see you managed to reply to my post before I deleted it.  So, as I said before you replied: I would like to try out maps made by other players, and as such am interested in modding support, even though I can't mod.

(Now it doesn't look like you're talking to yourself.)

[cekivi]

3 minutes ago, polarnomad said:

 

Oops.  I see you managed to reply to my post before I deleted it.  So, as I said before you replied: I would like to try out maps made by other players, and as such am interested in modding support, even though I can't mod.

(Now it doesn't look like you're talking to yourself.)

It's only when you start replying to yourself that you have a problem

[Scyzara]

14 hours ago, Viktor Kvasnica said:

Folks, can we, please, just stop talking about modding the game via hacking and respect the developers/Hinterland? It has been said enough on this matter. I had not created this topic/poll just to discuss hacking and/or legal aspects of the modding. I do not want to lock the topic - I want to leave it opened for CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts.

You're right, sorry for straying from the topic and suggesting a lock.

Regarding your original questions:

I for one would be most interested in a mod drastically decreasing item numbers (of weapons, tools, premade clothes, medicine and pretty much everything else), animal abundance and animal respawn rates. Colder temperatures, decreased healing properties (healthgain/h) and prolonged healing times for injuries (sprained ankle, food poisoning, etc.) are also on my wish list. I'm basically hoping for a mod drastically increasing the difficulty level, forcing you to actually struggle for every single miserable day. 

I'm pretty optimistic somebody will be creating something along these lines. And if not, I'll probably even take the time to learn how to do it myself. TLD's worth the effort for sure.

Player-made maps could also be really interesting. I just hope the mods will get some kind of evaluation system (e.g. 1-5 stars) so it'll be possible to tell promising ones from less-promising ones to put it politely.

[cekivi]

8 hours ago, Scyzara said:

I for one would be most interested in a mod drastically decreasing item numbers (of weapons, tools, premade clothes, medicine and pretty much everything else), animal abundance and animal respawn rates. Colder temperatures, decreased healing properties (healthgain/h) and prolonged healing times for injuries (sprained ankle, food poisoning, etc.) are also on my wish list. I'm basically hoping for a mod drastically increasing the difficulty level, forcing you to actually struggle for every single miserable day.

I for one am not so keen on difficulty mods. I don't have a lot of time to game so I don't want Long Dark to be too much of a grind otherwise my first few play sessions will all be the same: desperately collecting resources. I'd prefer to be able to get to exploring fairly quickly (within the first 3-5 days). Personally, I'd like the difficulty to be Stalker weather and loot tables with Voyager animal behaviour